Ok, here's a topic to debate ...

[(A.S.S)Phydeau]

I propose that fiat money created by the federal reserve combined with a fractional reserve banking system is unconstitutional.

Let the debate begin.

[phantomvirus]

Okay im just a poor college student who just didn't understand that paragraph... When someone explains to me in simple college terms what that means and I'll be abliged to give my views on the subject

Remember: You Can't Stop the Virus!

[soulkiller288]>USK<[]

errr ....what??? umm please use smaller high school words so i can understand it

[LamourAlexx]>USK<[]

guys...

thats not a paragraph...
and
Those words are not words that havn't been mentioned in my history class.

Sorry, it was hard to resist XP

[(A.S.S)Phydeau]

Here, if you'll watch at least the first 20 minutes or so you'll have some idea. I suspect you'll end up watching the whole thing.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&ei=bLIgSa-9N5PuqAK08OHQCA&q=money+as+debt&hl=en

[Z]

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

It seems pretty clear that this is intended to apply to states only. It's not clear that Congress can delegate its power to coin money to a private organization (the Federal Reserve) though, and I certainly think it should not do so, regardless of legality.

[ShoMeTheMoney]>USK<[]

Nov 15, 2008 22:07:43 GMT -5 (A.S.S)Phydeau said:

I propose that fiat money created by the federal reserve combined with a fractional reserve banking system is unconstitutional.

Let the debate begin.

Why is it unconstitutional?
From the quote Z provided, only the states are limited from producing money. The Federeal government has the sole right to manufacture money. Now if they are to have a private company (Federal reserve) do it for them, under their supervision, what is the problem? Is there something in the constitution that states this is illegal?

I have not done much research on the subject just yet, so facts help a lot but i will get back to you once i research a little bit

[(A.S.S)Phydeau]

Nov 18, 2008 2:18:57 GMT -5 ShoMeTheMoney]>USK<[ said:

Nov 15, 2008 22:07:43 GMT -5 (A.S.S)Phydeau said:

I propose that fiat money created by the federal reserve combined with a fractional reserve banking system is unconstitutional.

Let the debate begin.

Why is it unconstitutional?
From the quote Z provided, only the states are limited from producing money. The Federeal government has the sole right to manufacture money. Now if they are to have a private company (Federal reserve) do it for them, under their supervision, what is the problem? Is there something in the constitution that states this is illegal?

I have not done much research on the subject just yet, so facts help a lot but i will get back to you once i research a little bit

Because it's NOT under their supervision. The Federal Reserve has NEVER been audited in 98 years.

The closest to an audit that's ever taken place is when Reagan audited the amount of gold in Fort Knox ... which revealed there is no gold, btw. It was confiscated by the federal reserve to cover the unpaid loan from the US government.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned bank that loans our cash to the government at 6% interest. Guess what you pay it back with. More cash borrowed at 6% interest. Since the interest can only be paid back from the principle it is impossible for us to ever "pay them back".

Another little FYI, the 16th amendment (the one that allows the existence of the Federal Reserve and the IRS) were never ratified by the states. In fact, the enactment of the Federal Reserve was voted upon on December 23rd, 1913 while the majority of congress and the senate were at home with their families.

Research a little bit. You'll discover, the American public was conned long before you and I were born.

I could even go a step deeper into the unconstitutionality of Federal Reserve notes. Starting after the assassination of Kennedy our money was no longer even a fiduciary money system. Meaning where you could directly exchange the note for gold or silver. Hence, it's simply now an IOU since it can only be exchanged for more, essentially valueless, dollars. According to the 8th amendment it is unconstitutional to pay a debt with a debt. But that's some "woo woo" stuff that simply dramatizes the situation. I think my friend Bill Denman sums it up best:

Article 1, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution says:

“The Congress shall have Power ... To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;”


Coining money is simply a metal stamping process which determines the size and weight of the coin. The value is simply the weight and fineness of the metal in the coin and this information is stamped onto the face of the coin during the “coining” process. Establishing the “value” of the coin does not mean establishing its purchasing power. It is impossible for governments to establish the “purchasing power” of money. The only thing government can do is to cause money to lose its purchasing power and this robs people of their savings and their future.

We must recognize that the authors of the Constitution viewed “money” as gold or silver coin — not paper. For many years before the American Revolution, the Colonies had been artificially creating paper money. Large quantities of paper “Continentals” were printed to finance the American Revolution. By the time the Revolution was over the “Continental” was practically worthless and the phrase “not worth a Continental” was commonly used to denote anything that had a very low value. Also, Shays’ Rebellion” was a result of states’ tinkering with money. Because of these experiences with manipulated money, the Founding Fathers tried to prevent the fraud always perpetrated on the working class by money manipulators. The only effective way to accomplish that was to mandate gold and silver as “money”. Article 1, Section 10 says:

“No State shall, ... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in payment of Debts; ...”

Thus there is no place in the Constitution that authorizes government to be in the banking business in any way. Neither governments nor banks can “create” money. Government’s only proper function regarding money is to insure honesty. The only proper function of banks is to supervise the investment of money entrusted to them by savers. But how would money get created and circulated in the economy without government and banks? A brief review of the “Coinage Act of 1792" will help answer that question. This act says: (Emphasis added)

“Section 14. And be it further enacted, that it shall be lawful for any person to bring to the said mint gold or silver bullion, in order to their being coined; and that the bullion so brought shall be there assayed and coined as speedily as may be after the receipt thereof, and that free of expense to the person or persons by whom the same shall have been brought. And as soon as the said bullion shall have been coined, the person or persons by whom the same shall have been delivered, shall upon demand receive in lieu thereof coins of the same species of bullion which shall have been so delivered weight for weight, of the pure gold or silver therein contained: Provided nevertheless, that it shall be at the mutual option of the party or parties binging such bullion, and of the director of the said mint, to make a immediate exchange of coins for standard bullion, with a deduction of one half per cent from the weight of the pure gold, or pure silver contained in the said bullion, as an indemnification to the mint for the time which will necessarily be required for coining the said bullion, and for the advance which shall have been so made in coins. And it shall be the duty of the Secretary of the Treasury to furnish the said mint from time to time whenever the state of the treasury will admit thereof, with such sums as may be necessary for effecting the said exchanges, to be replaced as speedily as may be out of the coins which shall have been made of the bullion for which the monies so furnished shall have been exchanged and the said deduction of one half per cent shall constitute a fund towards defraying the expenses of the said mint.”

In other words, the Coinage Act of 1792 was simply the implementation of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution.

The basic concept behind this act was to provide a means for owners of gold or silver bullion to have it minted into a coin whose weight and value (fineness) would be certified by a trusted agent (government). The owners of these coins could then spend them into circulation and thus provide money for public use. Notice that no banks are necessary to accomplish this goal and the government only provides the service of coining the bullion. It is also noteworthy that the Constitutional authorization for coining money is included in the section on weights and measures. In other words government’s only role was to provide a standard for the coinage of money just like they provide standards of weights and measures and this is the limit of their authority This is a vastly different concept from the one currently practiced in the U.S. today — and by practically every other nation on earth.

Incidently, the Coinage Act of 1792 is still in effect — it has never been repealed.

I’m well aware that this will raise a lot of other questions about money but it is not practical here to turn this into a treatise on money. I conduct four hour Power Point seminars on money which includes a little background on the development of money, the fact that money is a medium of exchange and fiat money is created by legalized counterfeiting, and that this fiat money is purchasing media but not a medium of exchange at the time of creation. The seminar is divided into three parts: Part 1 explains what money is and how a free market banking system (based on gold) works. I also explain how free market banks provide a valuable service to society. Part 2 analyzes the workings of the Federal Reserve System and the information provided is documented. The Federal Reserve and government are the sources for the documentation. Part 3 reviews monetary practices of past civilizations and shows that we are following in Rome’s foot steps to the dark ages if we continue with present policies; this is explained using the basic principles of economics.

This reminds me of the "rules of the con" from Guy Ritchie's movie Revolver:

The bigger the environment, the easier the control. ... so the opponent simply distracts their victim by getting them consumed with their own consumption.

The bigger the trick and the older the trick, the easier it is to pull, because --

1. They think it can't be that old,
2. They think it can't be that big,

... for so many people to have fallen for it.

Eventually, when the opponent is challenged or questioned, it means the victim's investment and thus his intelligence is questioned, no one can accept that. Not even to themselves.

[Furtive}Nachos{]

I just find it amazing that the mass of the United States of America doesnt realize where our money comes from or who runs it. Basically the Federal Reserve is owned by private banks around the USA. THink of your common banks... Bank of America, TD Bank, etc... Dont debate if im wrong but i believe that the Federal Reserve was placed in 1913. Before that date the USA printed its own money and everyone was happy and joyful.


I think the larger debate here is if Income Tax is constitutional.
Why should the government take 33% of my money as a student, living with my parents?

And did you know that Income Tax is voluntary!

The United states does not need an income tax to pay off its debts or to operate... figure this....

If Jill Makes $100 the gov. takes $30 in income taxes.

Jill buys shoes for $66 and has to pay sales tax of 6% so thats about $4

Bob who owns the shoe store gets that $66 into his paycheck which the gov ends up taking more income tax out of (30%) so the gov gets $20.

So Bob now has $46 to spend..


etc, etc, etc...

You can see how much money the government actually takes from everything you buy and earn.

I will be honest, at my job i make $6.25 per hour. I work 30+ hours a week and get paid every 2 weeks. Now my last check was for about $300 and I only got about $200 in my pay check... (This personally doesnt bother me because I mainly rely on my tips which are about 3 x greater than my hourly salary) But what is it of the Governments business to take about 30% of my earned money when I am a student living with my parents? When i was under 18 I was legally bound to my parents.

Bottom line...

TAXES SUCK!

[phantomvirus]

“In this world nothing can be said to be certain except death and taxes.” Benjamin Franklin had the right idea... Taxes may suck, but theres is nothing you can do about it. All we can do is send letters to our senators and tell all your friends to understand whats going on. Alone no one can do anything about the problem, but if enough people email their senetors and get involved in the issue, there is hope for change.

Remember: You Can't Stop the Virus!

[Rugal]

Hahaha, as if the Senators even care. All they are for is their own little agenda that they have going for them. They are corrupted by lobbyists every day into voting for bills that benefit the corporations that the lobbyists work for with no incentive on helping the common man, and they can't even get past their own parties views to actually get something productive done. Now how can you put so much trust in them if they are that corrupt?

[«PWC»Jon9908]

well in Minnesota they were planing on bringing property taxes up so they could give themselves a huge raise. Here check this out this is the guy running to stop this Dennis dunnigan